The #1 Best Way To Stay Ahead In CRE With Cutting-Edge Technology

Aviva (00:00)
This week's listener of the week is Dream Team CX. Dream Team, thank you so much for leaving us a five star review. And for those of you listening, if you leave us a five star review below, you might be next week's listener of the week. Week. Week.

This week on Commercial Real Estate Secrets, we have Lonnie Hendry. Lonnie is the Chief Product Officer at TREPP Inc. And you may recognize his voice if you hang out in Commercial Real Estate Podcast land, because he is the co-host of a top Commercial Real Estate Podcast of all time, the TREPP Wire Podcast. So Lonnie, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Lonnie Hendry (00:47)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to it. It's amazing to see your podcast grow as quickly as it has. And I know how much work that takes being the cohost of our podcast show. So thankful to be on today. And maybe one of these days I might get to be the listener of the week, week, week.

Aviva (01:03)
Lonnie and I were just commiserating and not really commiserating, but over how much work having a child is. much like having a child, a podcast is an unbelievable amount of work. So somebody who also understands what it looks like to consistently put out a podcast from A to Z.

If somebody else gets it, it's Lonnie. Actually, Lonnie gets it far more than I do, how long? let's get into it. Lonnie, tell the listeners about who you are, what you do, and how we got here.

Lonnie Hendry (01:40)
Perfect. Yep. So thank you. I'm the Chief Product Officer at TREPP Inc., which is a data modeling and analytics firm. written into the reporting structure for commercial mortgage-backed security loans. We get Fannie and Freddie agency loan data and commercial real estate collateralized loan obligation. We've been in existence since 1979. We're based in Midtown Manhattan, and I get to run all of our product operations at the company.

We have a couple of distinct lines of business, the CMBS products, which we sell to traders, some lender products that we sell to banks for default modeling and, and CECL reserve purposes, obviously the CRE product, and a new corporate CLO product that we've launched here in the last couple of years. So no shortage of things to work on, but I love it. And, do the podcast. were 284 episodes in.

started March of 2020. We haven't missed a week since our podcast comes out every Thursday evening. And to your point, it's hard work, but it's definitely one of the most rewarding parts of the week for us because it allows us to kind of take everything that we've seen from that week, put it into a nice digestible format and share it with our listeners, which we love doing.

Aviva (02:57)
Yeah, I have a fantasy about one day having some type of like more like a daily type of commercial real estate show or something that is more present. Right. You know, I'll record this and it'll come out in a couple of months. And but my husband and I like to listen to the presidential daily brief. I don't know if you've ever heard that podcast. And it's fun to just listen to real time.

what's going on in the world, but

Let me me walk before I run. let me ask you, when did you start working at TREPP Inc?

Lonnie Hendry (03:34)
Hahaha

Yeah, so I've been a TREPP about five and a half years and I've been in commercial real estate my entire working life. So my first job was in multifamily development, property management. I worked for some local developers and then moved into some larger property management firms like AMLI residential. And I did low income housing tax credit management all the way up to luxury class A. I'm a multifamily guy at heart. I love multifamily. I think it's incredible as an asset class.

Aviva (03:43)
Okay.

Lonnie Hendry (04:08)
I moved into valuation brokerage and I've been, you know, teaching at Texas Tech University and at a local community college here for, since 2013 on the community college 2018 at Texas Tech. And so I've spent my entire working life in and around commercial real estate and TREPP was a really great opportunity. And it's been honestly the best place I've ever worked, like incredibly smart, ambitious people. And we get to work with practitioners that are doing deals every single day.

and I get to help build products and services that help them make more money and be more efficient, which is a really great feeling for us.

Aviva (04:46)
So we see CMBS in the news, what seems like daily. Can you explain what a CMBS loan is to a fifth grader?

Lonnie Hendry (04:59)
Yes, I can. And I will say if you're in the commercial real estate space, you already know that we're very jargon and you know, our language is a language of its own. We have a lot of acronyms, et cetera. So CMBS really just stands for Commercial Mortgage-backed Security. And what that is, is a compilation of individual property loans on commercial properties, so mortgages for commercial buildings, that get pooled into a single security or a bond.

and get sold in the secondary market to investors. So in the early 90s, there was this idea to securitize or pool commercial mortgages into this tradable asset. And so it's been a business since then. And it's a pretty large part, depending on who you ask or where we're at in the real estate cycle, commercial mortgage backed securities can account for anywhere, call it 15 to 20 % of the outstanding mortgage debt in the US.

So it's not an insignificant portion of the market. And what's interesting for us, as I mentioned, we're written into the reporting structure. So we actually have the largest repository of owner submitted income and expense financial statements in the industry with data that goes back to the mid 90s. So we actually have individual property level line item income and expense data across all of the CMBS properties that have effectively ever been issued.

Aviva (06:24)
and you get those directly from the owners?

Lonnie Hendry (06:27)
So they go to the owner, to the lender and the servicer, and then that comes directly to TREPP. And so in the loan documents, it says TREPP is a recipient of the data. And then we've built an entire analytics insight platform on top of it, where we provide the market a lot of color and commentary using that data. We have some aggregation statistics, but then we also have the granular property level data as well. And that's the part for me, being in the real estate space, like we all know

Aviva (06:29)
Okay.

Lonnie Hendry (06:56)
Data can create a huge competitive advantage for people and real estate usually works on information asymmetry. So one party knows a lot more about the property or the use than the other one does. And we can level the playing field in a lot of those cases by providing people good insights.

Aviva (07:06)
Hmm.

I love that comment about it being asymmetric because you're right. You get in the ring and somebody's, they know every square inch of that property and you have 30, 60, 90 days to figure it out. it's a game of 3D, 4D, whatever, chess, but that's a really interesting way to look at it. So why?

Lonnie Hendry (07:29)
Exactly.

Hehehehehe

Aviva (07:43)
Again, you know, I like to it's like you said we could get pitted in jargon and industry mania all day long, but sometimes I like to take it a little higher level. Why are we seeing CMBS all over the news these days?

Lonnie Hendry (08:00)
Yeah, I think there's two primary reasons for that. One CMBS because TREPP and others have access to some of the underlying data, it becomes a much more transparent component of the market. So as you know, from your practice, I mean, the real estate industry by definition is an opaque marketplace. mean, you don't know anything that people don't want you to know. And even the stuff that they want you to know, it's usually given to you with some, you know,

Aviva (08:20)
you

Lonnie Hendry (08:30)
story behind it or something to try to make it sound better, look better, et cetera. So the CMBS data that we have provides a really stable, transparent layer to the CRE ecosystem. So we can definitely create aggregate statistics around delinquency, special servicing, new origination, and provide some market color and commentary. So whenever there's a disruption,

you start seeing CMBS data used much more widely because it gives a good proxy for what's happening in the market. And then the other thing is just, know, as our business is generally a little bit countercyclical in the sense that when the markets are, you know, rocking a roll in and interest rates are zero and people are just transacting and every sale is higher than the last, data is a little bit less front of mind for people. And when things start to level off or...

you start seeing interesting things around like insurance costs becoming a challenge or property taxes, repairs and maintenance. People need that transparency. So they come back to folks like TREPP and we provide that insight. it's an interesting dynamic. We think CMBS data is really representative of the broader market, but at TREPP, we also manage some bank balance sheet consortia data as well as some life insurance lender consortia data.

we actually provide a really holistic perspective across all lending mechanisms, whether it be traditional bank balance sheet, Lifeco or the CMBS market.

Aviva (10:03)
Wow. It's almost like you just described the year 2022 to today.

Lonnie Hendry (10:09)
You know, it's, I apologize to the listeners here at some level because I love this stuff. Like I'm a data junkie and a data nerd and it comes through, but yeah, it's 2022 to 2024 is really interesting. And if you even go back to 2020, mean, like we joke internally where the last four years are going to feel like 50. Like if you look at just the lockdowns, COVID, the pandemic, the government stimulus inflation.

The Fed taking aggressive action like the ebbs and flows of the property markets. You look at Treasury yields like all these things like You have the geopolitical stuff like all this stuff. It's like a whole lifetime. It's been consolidated down into like a four-year stretch It's really really crazy

Aviva (10:54)
Four years and counting.

Lonnie Hendry (10:56)
Yes, the one silver lining though is commercial real estate has remained resilient. And so for people that question the resiliency of this asset class, like with all of those really crazy factors playing out in the market, we've seen a very small number of properties actually go back to the lender. We've seen a small number of properties sell at a loss relative to the universal properties. And I think it just bodes well for the industry to say,

even in times that are super tumultuous or volatile like we've seen, these assets continue to perform. People continue to go need warehouse space. People continue to need retail space. Office is the one that's really pulled back, but multifamily, self-storage, senior housing, mobile home parks, all these things are kind of still rocking and rolling, maybe even better than they were pre-pandemic.

Aviva (11:49)
Hey, the person who tells you that commercial real estate is collapsing is a person who doesn't realize the online shopping that they're doing, the restaurants they're eating at, the nail salons and the jet. It's like, we consume so much commercial real estate, every single person, every single day.

I'm bullish on, it's like you said, this asset class is resilient and of course there will be ebbs and flows and obviously that hot topic right now is office space, but I still, I'm not betting against office. It's just, just changing, but aren't we all.

Lonnie Hendry (12:31)
Yeah, I agree with you. I'm actually pretty long office in the sense that I think sometimes we suffer from recency bias and clearly there's a recency bias towards work from home. But if you look at our history, people want to be together. People want to work in close proximity to each other and innovation happens when people are around each other. And I love Zoom and I love the advancements in technology that allow us to talk to people around the world that we wouldn't be able to otherwise. But I think in five years,

You're going to see a lot more people back in the office than you do today. And I think it's like anything else. We saw this with retail five years ago where we were just over retailed and we're really over-officed right now. We just have a bunch of functionally obsolete office buildings that by definition, like we know real estate is cyclical. There's never been a really strong downturn for urban office nationally. And we're starting to see that today. And so we're going to figure out what to do with some of those buildings. Some of them will be torn down. We'll rebuild with them.

with newer, nicer, more miniatized buildings. And I think five years from now, it's much different discussion around office.

Aviva (13:37)
Hey, absolutely. The saga continues. So let me ask you, how you have all this data that TREPP provides, how do you make it actionable for an owner or a broker?

Lonnie Hendry (13:40)
you

Yeah, that's a great question. it's actually, that's our primary focus is data on its face doesn't move the market. doesn't make people more efficient, more money. That has to be actionable data, right? So what we want to do is we want to find out where are the pain points for the different users in the marketplace. So whether you're a tenant rep or a landlord rep or an owner, you're going to look at the data slightly differently. It could be the same underlying data.

but your use of the data is going to be slightly different. So like if I'm an owner of a property, there's a couple of things that I want to know. How does my performance stack up to the marketplace? Are my rents competitive with the broader market? And up until recently, you've had to rely on survey data or some sort of proxy for what you think market rent is. We can actually provide you rental rate, actual rental rate data. We can provide you occupancy data.

We have line item expense data where we can give you a time series to say, here's what this individual line item of your general administrative expense or your repairs and maintenance expense has done in the market for the last five years. Here's what it looks like with the 10 most comparable properties for the last five years. And here's where your property sits. One of the really hot topics right now is tenant improvement allowance. We track all of that as well. So we know how much people are reserving for TIs.

Aviva (15:07)
Well.

Lonnie Hendry (15:19)
on all of the mortgages in our system. So you want to see how TIs have moved year over year, property by property. We can give you a really granular delineated breakdown of that. That's actionable. That allows you to go into negotiations with a much stronger position. And so we could go through all of the use cases and I feel we have a very strong value prop, but that would be one example of how people could take our data and make their portfolio more efficient, make their building more efficient.

Aviva (15:19)
Wow.

Hmm.

Lonnie Hendry (15:47)
hold their property management more accountable, whatever the case, to try to drive increased NOI to their properties.

Aviva (15:54)
I have fantasized over knowing the actual rental rates of warehouses, having some form of like, you know, of course brokerages have their own databases and, if there was some way, trust me, I think about it all the time. I wish there was some way where we could just know factual statistics.

for like you said, TIs and rent, know, because we've seen some companies try to do that and you know, some are successful, some aren't successful. But I think ultimately it just helps every, well, the owners, the brokers, I don't know about the tenants, but maybe.

Lonnie Hendry (16:29)
Mm-hmm.

Well, it

does does give the it gives the tenants a little more comfort like I think maybe it doesn't move the market for them in terms of like savings, but it gives them confidence that the deal they're negotiating is at market. I think most people understand that there is a market rate for whether it be rent or cam charges or whatever. But when they don't know what that is, and they're just being told here's what it is. That's sometimes a tough pill to swallow. But if you had some data to support

Here's why we're charging what we're charging. Here's what four other properties in our market charge that are very comparable to us. It makes the transaction part of the equation a lot smoother because people don't feel like they're getting the wool pulled over their eyes or whatever, right? So they trust that they have some data. It's like, think for us, I'm just a proponent of transparency in the market. think transparency creates efficiency. It doesn't lessen people's ability to negotiate and you're always going to have, it's just like operators today. You have people that are,

Aviva (17:36)
Hmph.

Lonnie Hendry (17:42)
experiencing the same macroeconomic challenges. Some are thriving in this market and some are not. It's not because the macro, it's just because some operators are better than others. Same thing will happen in a more transparent market. Some will win, some will not, but it at least levels the playing field where everyone has a better opportunity to come out on the win side.

Aviva (17:46)
Yeah.

couldn't agree more. It's very, it's very, very interesting. And I think tenants could can better anticipate an underwrite ahead of time if there is that transparency, you know, not all is lost for our dearest tenants that we know and love so much. So

Lonnie Hendry (18:20)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah, we got to love tenants

tenants tenants help those those chargebacks and those those billbacks wouldn't be paid if there weren't tenants, they can go ask some office operators right now like urban office that was 95 % occupied forever. They didn't worry about the elevator repairs and all this stuff because they were able to charge that back to the tenants. Now that the buildings are 60 % occupied, the expenses haven't gone down and the owners having to incur a much more disproportionate amount of those expenses and

Aviva (18:39)
well.

Lonnie Hendry (18:53)
That's one of the challenges. like, think to your point, tenants make buildings work and you want to have a fair relationship with them. And it's an interesting dynamic. You're seeing tenants become a lot more informed now than what they have been over the last 20 years or so. Like they're much more in tune with what's happening in the marketplace than just, hey, I need a space. What's the rent? They actually have a little better understanding and tenant reps have done a lot to help with that.

Aviva (19:06)
Mm-hmm.

Lonnie Hendry (19:21)
making them more equipped to make better decisions.

Aviva (19:23)
Yeah, it's very interesting and you're, I won't go into taxes. That'll just put everybody to sleep now. Let's talk about something more exciting. Tell me, so the podcast, the TREPPWIRE podcast, which all the listeners should listen to once they're done with this episode, how did it come to fruition? And yeah, tell me a bit about that journey.

Lonnie Hendry (19:50)
So we have always done a really great job in my opinion of putting out reliable, consistent, timely content commentary on the market. So we've had daily newsletters, blog reports, research reports at scale. I mean, I think at some level our blogs and research reports, we've had like 1.6 million downloads of our stuff over the last couple of years. have, you know, thousands of subscribers across those channels. When COVID hit and we went into lockdown,

We had a little bit more time to connect digitally and we said, why don't we start a podcast? And so the podcast was kicked off and you know, something we had internally talked about before COVID, but it was one of those things where we didn't know the value of it. was going to be a huge time commitment and it just, it wasn't something that met the criteria, but when COVID happened, made a lot more sense. And so it got kicked off and it's like anything else in life. mean, it started off with 25 listeners.

75 listeners, 200 listeners, and now we're 10, 12,000 listeners an episode. And I think the consistency of doing it, we've not missed a week. We've put out an episode every single Thursday. We've brought in guests. We've tried to maximize subject matter expertise where maybe we don't have it or someone that can explain certain nuances of the market better than we can, bring them on the show. And it's turned into a really integral part of our business. It went from kind of this ancillary idea.

to now it's core to our company. If you think about TREPP now, the TREPPWIRE podcast is right up there at the top of the list.

Aviva (21:25)
It's huge. It's honestly how I knew about you all before I even knew about TREPP. But that's the whole point.

Lonnie Hendry (21:31)
Yeah,

exactly. Like that's what's the tip of the spear in a lot of cases. And, you know, I mean, you're the master at this with TikTok and some of the social stuff. people like Bob Knakal says this too. It doesn't matter who you know, it's who knows you, right? It's that's what's important. And we have all these new tools and technologies and mediums to disseminate data and commentary. The podcast just becomes one of those channels.

It's really organic in how it reaches people that you otherwise wouldn't reach. And we've seen that firsthand. it's, you know, it's not for everyone because it is hard work and it's not something that you can do occasionally. If you want to grow an audience, like it's something that you have to be dedicated, consistent, committed. And it's, it's tough. Like we have our, our podcast producer who's now the host of the show, Hayley Keen.

She spent I don't know how many hundreds of nights till 11 o'clock at night editing the podcast and getting it pushed out. And we have a whole support team that does our outlines and puts stuff together for us. mean, it's a full on commitment that you have to be willing to take on if you're gonna go into this route.

Aviva (22:43)
something that just makes me so excited is like thinking about our industry, technology, marketing, right? All these changes that are happening in our industry and then like how we are, we have no idea.

how it will impact. We are just starting to discover the way that technology can impact our business in commercial real estate, right? A business that was so quite literally brick and mortar. The reality of this world is that technology touches and changes everything.

Lonnie Hendry (23:16)
Mm-hmm.

Aviva (23:25)
just so eager to continue to learn and watch how it evolves our industry for the better. It's like you said, bringing transparency, bringing connection. You know, I've gotten calls from folks locally, nationally, nationally, but obviously I transact locally from the podcast owners who want and it's like. Nobody ever could have guessed that this is how we would

get leads or buy buildings. it's, it's just very exciting because it's uncharted territory and the upside is pretty ridiculous. So.

Lonnie Hendry (24:09)
I agree with

all of that. in real estate has been a somewhat archaic industry where it's very relationship driven people. we see this on the data side and people have built up their own internal data sets. They only want to trust that data. They don't think they need any other data. And to your point, technology is just changing the way business is conducted and it's changing the way you can reach people. And, you know, we have a hundred, hundreds of stories of people that have

either been on our podcast or met us through the podcast. And it's amazing the network effect that the new technology can create. And I think for me, having been in this business as long as I have, there's enough business for everyone and sharing best practices, creating broader networks of referrals and the ability to introduce people to someone that maybe even as a competitor, but they're not, you're referring something to them outside of your local market.

that creates goodwill for the players. I think leveraging technology creates a scale that you just can't do through handshakes and lunches. And so I'm in 100 % agreement with you.

Aviva (25:21)
there's a time and a place for it all, right? We can't do it without that personal touch, but there's something really magical about the connection that we can, you for example, you and I met at a party, a gala, that's how you know it was fancy, a gala.

Lonnie Hendry (25:28)
Right.

Yeah.

Aviva (25:46)
where they brought together commercial real estate, internet personalities for all intents and purposes. That's where we connected and who would have thought it worked. And here we are. How long ago was that? April? Okay. Six months later. no, it's, I'm, yeah, I'm bullish on commercial real estate and I'm bullish on technology. And I suppose that's why we're both here.

Lonnie Hendry (26:04)
Yeah.

I think you summed it up and I look like we will do some deals together. Like we'll either refer some business to you from people that we meet or vice versa. Like I'm a hundred percent confident of that and going to the gala or meeting each other like that was never the intent. But the reality is when you have like-minded folks that are all trying to drive towards making their industry better, like really cool things happen. And so it's, it's been amazing like that. For me, the podcast is beyond the business part of it.

Aviva (26:28)
sure.

Lonnie Hendry (26:40)
It's just opened up an entirely new set of connections and friends and people that I never would have just crossed paths with before. But now our friends of mine that were like, you know, texting or emailing each other. And it's, really, really cool to be a part of that. And then the cool thing about it is it's open to everyone. mean, anyone can create a Twitter account. Anyone can get on LinkedIn. Anyone can use tech talks. Like there's no reason Instagram you can get on there and create a network, create a brand for yourself just by posting some.

usable content and thoughts, maybe expertise that you have in your local market, there's an insatiable amount of desire for that type of authentic knowledge share. And I'm super happy just to be a very small part of that.

Aviva (27:25)
Yeah. And for some reason it's just, it's been so taboo to do that in our industry. Like it's, I've been saying that now, you know, I, I too really jumped in during the pandemic and I've been looking at all the brokers in my market going guys, like if you need to start talking, you need to start being present. They still won't do it. And

Lonnie Hendry (27:52)
Yeah.

Aviva (27:54)
look, I'm only going to beg my competitors to compete against me so much, but it's very interesting how our business, our industry is poo-pooed it, but how in practice, how fruitful it is. So.

Lonnie Hendry (28:11)
Yeah. And it's not, it's not

a fluke. Like, I mean, I've met with enough people like you that have started, you know, creating a presence online and it's amazing. The results are almost always the same. Like you just outperform your competitors because you reach more people. it's, it's not, that's one out of a hundred people. Like everyone that makes a concerted effort to create an online brand outperforms their competitors. Like it's pretty universal at this point. So it's, it's

It's just interesting how certain things get labeled certain ways and the industry is slow to adopt and adopt it. But I'm with you. think the next five or 10 years is going to be really transformative. You're going to see a lot more people embrace this use of technology and creating online brands and personas. And it's going to create just more opportunity for all of us. I'm looking forward to it.

Aviva (28:57)
Hey, I love it. Lonnie, what makes you happy with what you do day to day in commercial real estate?

Lonnie Hendry (29:07)
So I, if it hasn't come across yet, like I'm super fanatical about commercial real estate and data. Like I've dedicated my entire working life to this profession and I don't think I'll ever not be working in commercial real estate. Like I will be working time a hundred years old if I'm able and talking about commercial real estate and data. like for me, TREPP really has brought together my diverse background, the skillset that I possess, like passion for.

connecting people and building cool things and allowed us to like melt that together with this need in the market where people are always looking for a competitive edge. They're looking for an advantage or looking for a differentiation. And I can bring my practitioner mindset, skillset, understanding of the nuances of the market with this really cool tech enabled platform data that that's just not available and build really awesome stuff. So like for me, it's every day I come into the office and it's

It's just exciting because I know we're helping people become better at their jobs and produce better results, but for their clients, more revenue for their company themselves. And it's, it's a really cool feeling when you're truly making a difference in the industry that you work in. And I feel like at TREPP, like I'm able to do that. And our firm is, you know, very well established as being an industry standard. And so it's, it's amazing. Like I, wouldn't change anything. I love where I'm at and I love just.

the time of where both of us are, we're kind of getting to live through this early stage of all the stuff we've talked about today and be a part of that. know looking back in 10 years, this will probably be table stakes and everyone will be doing this, but to kind of be an early adopter is a really, really cool feeling and a very motivating one too.

Aviva (30:52)
Hey, you led the way with the podcast game. There's, you know, let that be known. It's impressive. So Lonnie, where can the listeners find you, follow you, listen to you, contact you, look into TREPP, tell us all the good stuff.

Lonnie Hendry (31:12)
Yeah, so you can go to our website, it's just trepp.com. So www.trepp.com and we have a really robust website. There's a ton of free commentary, content, research reports that's all available for free. You just sign up. You can start getting daily notifications. We have a daily newsletter called The Rundown, which covers transaction activity across the U.S. Delivered your inbox every morning, 10 minute read on the train ride in or on the bus ride in or driving in.

For me personally, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Twitter or X, I still call it Twitter, but handle there is Lonnie underscore CRE. I would love to connect on LinkedIn. You can contact me through our website. My contact and email information is there and I'm happy to share that with anyone that would like it, but no shortage of ways to find us. The podcast is on all the streaming platforms. You can actually listen to it directly on our website or you can subscribe to it on.

Apple podcast, Spotify, all of the major players, YouTube, et cetera. so we're, we're out there. We're trying to create an even bigger presence for our firm. every day I just left the S I O R conference this week out of it in LA. And so I'm probably probably do 60 to 70 live presentations at different events across the country every year. And so, if anyone wants to reach out, if, if I'm in your town, love to go grab lunch, hang out, whatever, we want to make this network as big as we can.

Aviva (32:41)
Thank you for your time today. Thank you for your passion. As a lifer in commercial real estate, I'll see you there. We're in this for the long haul. We really appreciate your time, your knowledge, and everything you do for this industry. So thank you. I really appreciate you being on the show today.

Lonnie Hendry (33:04)
I'm very grateful to have the opportunity and I'm grateful that I got to meet you and we're friends. And, you know, I know that we'll do business at some point in the future and it's amazing just to see how you've taken your business and really grown it at some crazy multiple and to see the podcast and other stuff that you're doing is really awesome. So, for everyone listening that, that maybe doesn't know the backstory of kind of your business and everything, it's really cool to see how you've spent your life in this and you, you've built out something that's really, really.

incredible and I can't wait to see what it looks like 10 years.

Aviva (33:37)
The feeling is mutual. Thank you. I appreciate the kind words. Awesome. Well, for everybody listening, hope you enjoyed this episode and we'll see you next week.